Comments for Edge-Ucation

Comment on What is Edge-Ucation? by Shuunsui

Shuunsui — Sun, 31 Oct 2010 05:55:07 +0000

Hi Tim, I believe that you are spot on: our cultural difference is the reason of our disagreement. And yes, you are quite perceptive in guessing my education background
Sayonara!
Shuunsui

Comment on What is Edge-Ucation? by Tim Catalano

Tim Catalano — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 14:09:17 +0000

Shuunsui – Thanks for keeping the conversation alive! Opposing viewpoints are extremely valuable for critical thinking both for us and for future readers. I will respond to a few of your points.

1. You claim that showing interest and participating are the same thing and if you want to relate to a teen it must be sincere or you will be a fraud. I agree that the interest should be sincere but I do not agree that show interest in a thing and participating are the same thing. Here is an example from my experience as a high school teacher: A student is listening to music in his headphones. I ask the kid what he is listening to, hear a band name I have ever heard before, and take a quick 20 second listen. I can then be honest with the kid whether I like it or not. I often don’t like it, but I have shown interest and the teen is now engaged in a real conversation with me. Even if I don’t like the music, the teen has been heard. The power of a simple exchange like this can be transforming in a classroom.

2. You say “it is pointless to ‘relate’ to a teen or to a child for that matter, when you are an adult. We should acknowledge that difference and make the teens and children realise that difference as well” Then much later in your response you talk about a “15 yr old telling his mum to f… off because he’s been told to tidy his room and the mum is trying to understand WHY his son or daughter is acting like this”, and earlier you made this statement, “it is quite alarming to see teachers fearful of raising their voice (or giving a slap on the wrist) nowadays and prefer to immerse themselves into the world of those they have been tasked to educate in order to try to control their behaviour” These three comments illustrate exactly my point. It is not “pointless” to relate to a child or teen because when we do, the other two problems diminish greatly. The mom who takes to time to relate and understand her 15 year old will have a more positive relationship with him or her. This does not mean they always agree or that the mom is “stooping” to a lower level. It means there can be open and honest dialogue and the likelihood if the teen being that belligerent decreases greatly. Likewise the teacher can focus on educating and student learning rather than trying to “control” behavior. Students who share mutual respect with their teachers do not behave because they fear punishment or a “slap on the wrist” They behave because they want to preform for a teacher then respect as a person not just an authority figure.

3. The last point of yours that I have time for this morning is your reference to boundaries between the worlds of children, teens, and adults and the fact we should enforce these boundaries. The differences between teens and an adults are purely societal. Teens are physically adults. Teens are intellectually (according to the research of Jean Piaget, Kholberg, and many others) adults. They might not have the amount of experience or depth of knowledge, but they are capable of reasoning and thinking just like adults. So these boundaries are artificially created by society and it does out society no good to divide itself up between “us” versus “them.” Schools are micro societies. I have seen schools which operate as you suggest where it is adults against kids and I have seen schools where adults and kids work together. The later is a much better experience for both the teens and their teachers and much more authentic learning can take place.

Last thought: Besides an age difference fueling our different views on this subject, there may also be a cultural one. I am assuming you are British or at least British educated (based on the spelling of several words in your comments) American schools and British schools do have fundamental differences in the way they allow and encourage teachers and students to interact. This does not mean that one system is better than the other, just that there may be a cultural paradigm difference between your experience and mine. This might be a topic for a different day.

Thanks again for the comments. I don’t have time to respond to everything you said, but I enjoyed the read.

Comment on What is Edge-Ucation? by Shuunsui

Shuunsui — Thu, 28 Oct 2010 10:30:03 +0000

Hi Tim, appreciate your clarification and we agree to disagree on some aspects. Showing interest and participating is the same thing, as the ultimate result is to relate to the interest of the teen and you cannot do so unless you show sincere interest… else you will appear as a fraud, in which case I do not see how you relate to them. My point is it is pointless to ‘relate’ to a teen or to a child for that matter, when you are an adult. We should acknowledge that difference and make the teens and children realise that difference as well. For their benefit, the focus should be on providing the necessary support (material first and then a shoulder on which they can rely on when they are in need) and let them discover and appreciate their own worlds without too many interference. Nevertheless, the boundaries should be made very clear and we should not stoop to their level and try to understand why they crossed the boundaries (when they do it). Instead, we should be true to our values and communicate this to our children; where sanctions are needed, these should be enforced without the blink of an eye. Only then will they ascertain and respect that difference (and acknowledge who is the Leader) and only then shall we be able to maintain order in all 3 worlds (adult, teen and child). This inequality is the basis of our society as we know it today; look around you and you will see that is the thread holding it all together, allowing people to dream, giving them hope of a better tomorrow and giving them the ambition to work hard to be on an equal footing to their role models.
As to your mention of ‘good teachers’, it is quite alarming to see teachers fearful of raising their voice (or giving a slap on the wrist) nowadays and prefer to immerse themselves into the world of those they have been tasked to educate in order to try to control their behaviour; they may well have an 80% chance of succeeding but there will always be that 20% who will look upon them as adulescents and hence a bunch of practical jokers. I am not a partisan of excessive punishment or corporal abuse, but I do advocate the efficacy of a slap or a solid oral reprimand whenever necessary; although the chance of success might still be 80% (or perhaps less than that) but at least the rest knows that the teachers mean serious business. At the end, they may not love the adults, they may even hate them sometimes, but there will be respect and winning that battle is a grand step in winning the war, which is to make them responsible adults; with all the ‘understanding’ or ‘psychological’ approaches that we have nowadays, look at how the children are today. Forget about the parties, the pot, the girls, the playboy mag hidden under the mattress (that’s always been there and should be there!), I am talking about the fundamental respect that the teens have for their parents and teachers: They don’t have any!!! When you see a 15 yr old telling his mum to f… off because he’s been told to tidy his room and the mum is trying to understand WHY his son or daughter is acting like this, it’s quite laughable.
By the way, I am a 20 yr old dude who just came out of adoslescence a few years back (or maybe still in there, huh?).
Regarding your combined experience with teens, I am sure that you and Todd have more than 30 years… coz you have been teenagers as well, right?
To end, I absolutely love the subject of adoslescence coz I’m writing a study on the matter and your insights are exactly what I need to initiate a debate when I present it to my peers.;-)

God bless!

Comment on What is Edge-Ucation? by Tim Catalano

Tim Catalano — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 13:18:12 +0000

Thanks for your comments Shuunsui. I love your passions and ideas and welcome people to disagree with our philosophies! I do not believe we are all on the edge. Not in the same way. Yes, children, teens, and adults all have their own worlds but the teenage world has only existed for about 60 years. The word “teenager” first appeared in print in a Readers Digest article in 1943. The whole concept of adolescence is relatively new and far less studied and understood than childhood. This makes their edge different, and the one Todd and I focus on. I do not believe teens are “delicate” or “victims” as you point out. They are simply at a different and unique stage in development. The better we understand where they are (We all this the edge) the better we will be able to educate them in a way that will best prepare them to be successful adults. All good teachers meet their students where they are and take an active interest in what they are interested in. An elementary teacher asks and is interested in the imaginary friend or new game made by his/her students. That does not mean that teacher will start acting like a little kid. When we recommend high school teachers get interested in teens (in your example punk rock music) we are not advocating that they start acting like a teen. Showing interest in their interests is not the same as conforming to their norms. In our experience with teens (over 30 years combined) we find that when we relate to teens, meet them on the edge (in other words in the areas they are authentically interested in such as arts, athletics, activities, and in the classrooms) then the “corrective action” that you advocate is rarely necessary. Yes there are rules but when teachers and teens are working together as allies rather than adversaries, those rules are broken far less often.

I hope this helps clarify a few things from our philosophy for you. I welcome more of your comments, questions, and discussion!

Comment on What is Edge-Ucation? by shuunsui

shuunsui — Wed, 27 Oct 2010 11:09:23 +0000

That’s enough theorizing to make you go bonkers! Teenagers on the edge? Aren’t we all on the edge!
Children, teenagers, adults, irrespective of age, we are all confined within boundaries guided by rules that have been set by man to control man. Is there anything wrong with control? Not if you are aiming for the greater good… but it can be a pain in the butt because we are all HUMANS at the end of the day.
A teenager needs to know there are rules that are set to guide their actions, be it laid down by the family or at school. The same applies for children AND adults. Whenever there is a rule that has been broken, there MUST be a corrective action… the degree or intensity or mode of the corrective action depends on the society in which the teenager lives.. end of story! We should stop victimizing the teenagers and think that they are soooo delicate and sooo on the edge… come on! The ‘hyprocrysy’ of the adult world is what motivates the teens to grow up and be an adult. Same goes for the ‘hypocrysy’ of the teenage world coz that’s what motivates the child to grow and go to college and find a girlfriend! If we remove this difference and adults start to act like a teen, then we are saying that the teenage world should rule the adult world!!! Can you imagine the CHAOS out of this??? A frigging 40 yr old acting like a 15 yr old and finding interest in techno punk rock just to bond with the 15 yr old??? I say let all 3 worlds rule in their domains, there’s an age for everything! When I was a teen, I did not respect my folks because they tried to understand me by being in the same world as I was, I respected them and bonded with them because although we shared different values, I KNEW they would always be there for me and that’s it! Edge-ucation is for everybody, not only the TEENS! And the best Edge-ucator for a teen is not an adult, but another teen (or should I say, a friend of the same age).

Comment on Shut Up and Know Your Place! Part 2 (5 Strageties for Building Respect with Teens) by Cathleen Neal

Cathleen Neal — Fri, 06 Aug 2010 21:56:46 +0000

Labeling teen behavior as innovative rather than simply rebellious is “right on.” Most adults are quick to forget those teen years when so much felt out of control–the social scene, physical attributes, sexual concerns, intellectual challenges, pressures from parents about the future…on and on and on. It must feel absolutely overwhelming.

How refreshing to hear that something creative is noticed in a positive way. It’s no wonder that drama, art, or music classes are often favorites. They are not just “fluff” in comparision to the traditional academic coursework, but opportunities to express and interpret feelings and attitudes in an often less judgmental medium.

Teens have a need to accomplish something positive as does everyone. One of my favorite quotes is by none other than Jimi Hendrix: “Knowledge speaks; wisdom listens.” The effort to actively listen to teens will likely reveal the innovative, not always the perceived rebellious, aspect in their choices.

Comment on Shut Up and Know Your Place! Part 2 (5 Strageties for Building Respect with Teens) by Jeff Hopper

Jeff Hopper — Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:28:18 +0000

“Be strategic. All teachers can identify the five students who move the class positively or negatively.”

You are dead-on here with the need to be strategic. If we assume 35 students in a class and 55 minutes in a class session, once the greeting/admin and general instruction are delivered, if a teacher intends to move on to touring the room for individual check-in and assistance, this leaves maybe (MAYBE) one minute per student. So strategic contacts are vital. You must be able to influence the influencers to spread your message.

But therein lies the problem with your next two words: “All teachers…” The kind of strategic discernment and influence you are advocating–and yes, I would advocate this right along with you–is really a higher order relational skill, innate to a few, learnable in more, missed altogether by many. Good teachers do this, often without knowing just what they are doing. “All teachers,” on the other hand, just aren’t there–and sadly, they may never be.

Still, keep teaching what you’re teaching to those who would teach. Because some can “catch” this, and classrooms everywhere will be improved when they do.

Comment on Shut-up and know your place! (Responsible Individualism starts with Respect) by Mo

Mo — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:28:04 +0000

I think this means I agree, it’s just that I like talking…

Comment on Shut-up and know your place! (Responsible Individualism starts with Respect) by Mo

Mo — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 03:27:04 +0000

If you watched the terminator, the cause of the apocalyptic world was Skynet becoming self aware. Teenagers are like Skynet, they have become self aware, and can have drastic effects on the future. People have evolved with certain psychological features, one which comes to mind is fear. Fear can be triggered in different people in different ways, however it can generally be brought about when a person senses a threat. A threat which many people are afraid of is powerlessness, to be at the mercy of someone else. One of those most important aspects of the American constitution is liberty or freedom. The founding fathers didn’t trust those who would be in power to safeguard liberty, this is why they separated the branches of government and gave the people the right to bear arms. In a nation which promotes life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and values individualism, how is it justified to try and force authority and obedience upon the segment of the population that has just become self aware? Teenage rebellion is the only logical conclusion of the current system. Respect is upholding the liberty of another. Respect shows that a person cares about the freedom of another. To not respect someone is to disregard their liberty, it shows that you don’t care about them and their freedom. Withholding respect is virtually an attack on one’s liberty. Now if you go back to human nature, our instincts tell us to fight against oppression, we don’t want to be caged, we don’t want to be powerless. That is why the only logical course of action is to fight back. If a teenager in America looks at the society around him, he can see that no one else is being oppressed like this. Our laws are made through debate and deliberation. We choose to treat something as important as laws in this manner, but we treat something equally important, our future, in a different manner. Throughout high school I found that some kids could work for hours and hours, yet do badly, and others could do hardly any work and ace everything. The difference between the two is quite simple, inspiration. If someone is inspired, if they have something they are trying to attain, they subconsciously work harder at it. Why treat teenagers like kids? All it does is lead them to revolt. What if you treat them like adults? What if instead of telling them what not to do, you teach them? What if you give them a reason to look forward to the world? If you can respect them and treat them like adults then they can fill those shoes. Respect can inspire them to work towards bettering themselves rather than acting out because they don’t like to be mistreated. When teachers respected me, I respected them and paid attention in their class. This meant that I learned what I needed to know while the teacher was teaching it. This meant that I never crammed before exams because I already learned what I needed throughout the year. In the past you’d be married right after hitting puberty, and then you’d be treated like an adult. If all through history “teenagers” had the capacity to act and behave like adults, why can’t we now? If respect gets introduced into high schools then it may make a difference; it worked for me.

Comment on From Adversaries to Allies. (5 Strategies for Meeting Teens on the Edge) by Amanda

Amanda — Sat, 10 Jul 2010 04:33:43 +0000

The five strategies for meeting teens on the edge are similar to what we strive to do in adult education (college and other higher education). As an instructor of adults in a variety of learning situations, my role is not to be the “expert” but to help guide or facilitate each individual adult’s learning. This is done by making clear what is expected and have learners accept responsibility (often through learning contracts) at the beginning of the class; helping to set goals and arrange learning experiences/opportunities that foster learning; showing a committment to learners by being open, willing, and available to assist and provide resources when asked; and accepting that each student is different – from different backgrounds and situations, or even that they simply they differ in learning styles. Important in adult education is the understanding that each learner is unique, bringing his/her prior knowledge and experience to the current learning experience. As an instructor I need to recognize and accept that the learners are more than just students and that creating a connection with each learner will increase learning and make it a positive and meaningful experience for both the learner and instructor.